NKT and Dalai Lama

[Dharmavidya]

There is evidence around that supporters of the Dharmapala deity Dorje Shugden, most of whom are members of the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) are planning to demonstrate against the Dalai Lama outside the premises where he gives speeches on his visit to UK in the near future. This behaviour tends to bring Buddhism into disrepute and causes dissension within the sangha that conceivably could lead to NKT being excluded from the Network of Buddhist Organisation (NBO), the UK national Buddhist forum, since NKT were originally admitted to NBO on condition that they ceased such demonstrations. This news is very saddening. I personally do not think that NKT should be excluded from NBO, but I do think that the demonstations are unwise and inappropriate and a cause for regret. I hope that those who are intent upon them can be persuadd to change their minds and desist.

[Sujatin]

I gather that this is part of a long campaign and that the Dorge Shugden supporters are involved in much of the trouble in Tibet and receiving favours for their pains. I received the following from TibetInfoNet yesterday:

Sowing dissent and undermining the Dalai Lama

The Tibetan Buddhist deity, Dorje Shugden, whose worship can be traced back to the 17th century, is presenting the Dalai Lama and the Central Tibetan Administrations with problems that will simply not go away. The followers of the deity, though minor in terms of numbers, continue to attract labels of sectarianism and fundamentalism, which they counter with accusations of autocracy and intolerance on the part of the exiled Tibetan leadership in Dharamsala and the Dalai Lama in particular. Although arcane to outsiders, in recent years the dispute has been had a disproportionate effect on contemporary Tibetan politics both inside and outside Tibet.

On 28 April 2008, Shugden devotees organised a press conference in New Delhi. The declared intention of the event was to publicly express concerns about what the group’s perceived persecution at the hands of the Tibetan exile community. The speakers, however, were shrill in their criticism of the Dalai Lama, who they portrayed as an arbitrary ruler effectively preaching violence and responsible for the protests that took place in Tibet during spring 2008. Their condemnation echoed, in parts literally, comments made by the Chinese authorities against the Dalai Lama. Controversial

Dorje Shugden worship has always been divisive, but the controversy around it has heated up with the ostensible support of the Chinese authorities for its devotees within Tibet. The press conference in Delhi came after months of tension following the arrival in India of a group of Shugden followers from Tibet in Autumn 2007, i.e. long before the protests of spring 2008. It also appears to be connected to protests that Shugden devotees have vowed to carry out against the Dalai Lama in the West, particularly during his forthcoming visit to the UK where, with the New Kadampa Tradition, the group has its main western following.


Beijing’s language Tibetan words

The press conference was organised by the Indian headquarters of the Shugden group, the Dorjee Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society (DSDCRS), which is based in the Tibetan settlement of Majnu Ka Tila, Delhi. Kundeling Rinpoche founder and head of Atisha Charitable Trust, Bangalore, a welfare organisation for the group, addressed the gathering. As well as many Indian correspondents, two Chinese journalists from the official Chinese news agency Xinhua were also present. Kundeling Rinpoche was critical of the Dalai Lama for his stand on autonomy for Tibet and for his alleged failure to condemn the recent violent riots in Lhasa. He also accused the Dalai Lama of persecuting Shugden worshippers. A press release issued by the DSDCRS stated: "At a time when Tibet is going through one of its most difficult periods, we are compelled to speak as the problem they face [(the Shugden worshipper)] is not a simple or minor one and affects countless Tibetans both in Tibet and in exile".

In a politically curious move, Kundeling Rinpoche blamed the Dalai Lama for ditching the goal of Tibetan independence in favour of autonomy, while accusing the US and the West for creating the Shugden controversy to belittle China. He described the Dalai Lama as a pawn of US intelligence, adding he had created the Shugden issue to distract Tibetans and the international community from his primary goal of garnering support for his political aims. Comparing the Dalai Lama and the Central Tibetan Administration’s (CTA) handling of the Shugden group with apartheid and Nazi atrocities, Kundeling Rinpoche accused the Dalai Lama of having incited the spring 2008 unrest in Tibet and the subsequent worldwide demonstrations in order to conceal his "apartheid policy". The comparisons with apartheid and the Holocaust appear to be a response to the Dalai Lama’s accusation that Chinese policy is causing "cultural genocide" in Tibet.

Kundeling Rinpoche also accused the Dalai Lama of spoiling the good relations between India and China and claimed that the Indian Government is unhappy about his political activities on Indian soil, quoting a recent statement by the Indian External Affairs Minister that allegedly expressed this view. In a similar vein, he questioned the right of the Dalai Lama to run a parallel government, with its own separate constitution, in a sovereign India. Responding to some pointed queries from the Xinhua correspondents, he accused the Dalai Lama of instigating persecution, segregation and religious profiling in Tibetan settlements, thus leading to a dwindling number of Tibetan Shugden followers.

A seven-page anonymous pamphlet, entitled: 'A story of betrayal and unabated persecution', was distributed by the DSDCRS at the press conference. The pamphlet argues that, in contrast to his image as a pacifist, the Dalai Lama has never been averse to violence as in the past he allegedly asked the US to provide arms to Tibetan resistance fighters based in Mustang, Nepal, and even now he sends agents into Tibet in order to disrupt the political situation there. In what reads like editorials from Xinhua or Tibet Daily, the pamphlet claims: "His dirty moves at home and abroad earn him applause and pollution of religion gets standing ovation in the west"[sic].

Kundeling Rinpoche’s speech also suggested that opposition to the Dalai Lama by pro-independence exile activists has been "stage-managed for media consumption" and "allows him to repeat that he abhors violence and may resign". It was, according to the pamphlet, "intriguing" that the Dalai Lama referred to "ethnically motivated rioting in Lhasa in March" as peaceful and that he failed to condemn it. It further suggests that "Tibetans are generally not motivated to action unless the Dalai Lama backed by Washington gives [his] nod to the venture" and it is the "promise of American funding that solicits visits from the US Ambassador in Delhi and US Congress Secretary Nancy Pelosi [(her correct title is: Speaker of the House of Representatives)] to Dharamsala at the peak of ongoing unrest and demonstrations".


The Shugden issue in past and present

Dorje Shugden, also known as Dholgyal, is a protective deity linked to sectarian tendencies among the Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism, and its veneration has many of the characteristics of a cult. Although belonging to the Gelugpa, the Dalai Lama, has advised against the worship of Shugden for years, but in stronger words since 1996, because he believes it to "foster religious intolerance and lead to the degeneration of Buddhism into a cult of spirit worship".

In Tibet prior to 1959, the worship of Shugden was widespread among the politically dominant Gelugpa school, but particularly so within religious lineages that were more ardent defenders of the Gelugpa supremacy. Strongholds of Shugden followers were mainly in eastern Tibet where there was also a strong presence of other schools, particularly the Kagyupa school(1), but also the monastery of Sera in Lhasa and, to a lesser extent, the Tashi Lhunpo monastery in Shigatse, the main seat of the Panchen Lama, the second highest leader in the Tibetan religious hierarchy.

Historians see the Shugden cult as having flourished under the reign of the Fifth Dalai Lama, Lobsang Gyatso (1617-1682). Although he established the supremacy of the Gelugpa school and was the first Dalai Lama to exert political power over Tibet, spiritually, Lobsang Gyatso was also firmly linked to other schools of Tibetan Buddhism. He felt a particular affinity with the Nyingmapa, the most ancient school of Buddhism in Tibet, and integrated some of their traditions into state rituals. His promotion of Nyingmapa deities to the status of state oracles and ritual protectors drew objections within his own Gelugpa school, giving rise to the first historically verifiable appearances of the Shugden cult.

In the twentieth century, the Shugden cult was propagated from Sera monastery by Lama Pabongka, who was as universally acknowledged for his scholarship as for his recusant attitude towards other Buddhist schools. After 1959, the dominance of the Gelugpa establishment within early Tibetan exile institutions raised strong tensions, threatening to split the community. One of the most influential personalities of the early years in exile, a disciple of Pabongka and fervent Shugden follower, was one of the late tutors of the current Dalai Lama, Trijang Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama, however, is known for having had a more hearty relationship to his other tutor, Ling Rinpoche, whose more open and ecumenical attitude strongly influenced him. As time went by, the Dalai Lama reformed the exile institutions to make them more inclusive to different Tibetan groups of various regional and religious backgrounds. He had expressed his reservations towards the Shugden cult for many years, before taking a more clearly disapproving stance in 1996. He has consistently advised Tibetans, and particularly monks, to rethink their attitudes towards Shugden and requested that, if they do not feel able to give up its worship, to refrain from participating in religious ceremonies that he led personally. Although the move created some tensions within the exile community, partly due to pressures exerted on Shugden followers by some over zealous Tibetans, as a whole, these eased over the years, mainly because the most influential Shugden detractors gave up the cult or relocated outside India. Most laypeople, given that the cult was mainly a monastic phenomenon, followed instinctively the advice of their supreme spiritual leader.

Tibetans in Tibet widely followed the advice of the Dalai Lama too and most, where they have the choice, shun the Shugden cult and the monasteries practicing it. The majority of monks in the monastery of Sera in Lhasa, once the greatest centre of the cult, appear to have given it up. However, the PRC authorities, both at regional and central level, have been generous with financial and administrative support to Shugden groups and their programmes. The rush in championing the Shugden cause gives those cadres supporting it privileged access to funds and enhances their personal stature. Tibetan lamas living in Nepal or in the West who have remained dedicated to the Shugden group are frequent visitors to Tibet and regular guests of state-sponsored conferences on Buddhism or Tibetan culture and history in the PRC. Gyaltsen Norbu (Chin.: Gyaincain Norbu), the boy chosen by the Chinese authorities for the position of 11th Panchen Lama, is believed to be surrounded by teachers who belong to the Shugden group. Although monastic communities’ resistance against the state-supported introduction or re-introduction of Shugden largely takes place at a subtle level, tensions surface time and time again. The arrest and sentencing of Tenzin Deleg Rinpoche in 2002, for example, is connected with the underground struggle over Shugden worship.


The recent Shugden campaign

Since late 2005 - early 2006, there has been an increasing number of Shugden-related incidents and activities within, and originating from, Tibetan regions. These are possibly due to the increasing readiness of Tibetans to demonstrate their loyalty to the Dalai Lama, which culminated in the protests of March-April 2008, as well as with the general nervousness surrounding the forthcoming Beijing Olympics. Attempts to impose adherence to Shugden through the construction of temples and statues dedicated to the deity have met with fierce resistance from the monks, for instance in Labrang (Chin: Xiahe) in Autumn 2005, or in Ganden monastery, close to Lhasa, in March 2006. Both incidents appear to have been linked to Ganchen Lama, a prominent member of the Shugden group based in Italy, who is a frequent visitor to Tibet and Kathmandu, Nepal(2). In early autumn 2007, groups of Tibetan Shugden followers appeared in India, demanding from the Tibetan exile authorities that they be given access to the monasteries of Ganden Shartse and Sera Mey in South India where monks following the cult remained, quietly tolerated by their peers in order to avoid unnecessary unrest. The Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) in Dharamsala saw itself compelled to issue, on 03 October 2007, a press statement outlining its position on Shugden(3).

In December 2007, while visiting Mundgod in South India, the Dalai Lama held a speech warning that the recent activities of Shugden followers were spreading religious intolerance and thus playing into Chinese hands.

On 24 December 2007, Tau Wenching, first secretary in the Chinese embassy in India, along with his wife, visited the Tibetan settlement of Mundgod, accompanied by Thupten Palsang, also known as Nagpo Chenpo, an active member of the Shugden group and a former monk of Pomra Khamtsen [monastic college] of Sera Mey. Ensuing allegations of links between Shugden supporters and the Chinese embassy in New Delhi were repudiated by the DSDCRS, the group who organised the press conference of 28 April 2008, and dismissed as malicious propaganda by the CTA to malign them.

On 03 January 2008, the DSDCRS sent memoranda to the Indian Prime Minister, the Home Minister and the External Affairs Minister stating that the alleged ban on Shugden worship was destroying the unity of the Tibetan people and creating repercussions in Tibet. It also accused the Tibetan Reception Centre at Dharamsala of driving out the group of Tibetans who had reached there the previous autumn. The group stayed at the DSDCRS’s headquarter at Chatreng Guest House in Majnu Ka Tila Tibetan settlement, Delhi.

Geshe Kunchok Gyaltsen, Vice President of the DSDCRS, who was in Italy to meet Gangchen Lama, returned to Delhi on 16 January 2008 and held a meeting with Geshe Thogmey and Chimed Tsering, other leaders of the DSDCRS, to plan their further course of action. The DSDCRS issued a "Declaration on the position of DSDCR" on 23 January 2008, and filed a civil petition in the High Court of Delhi against the alleged persecution of Shugden followers in India by the Dalai Lama and CTA. The petition was accepted and the court issued notices to the Dalai Lama, the head of CTA Samdhong Rinpoche, the central government in New Delhi and the state government of Himachal Pradesh. A date for the next hearing was set for 12 May 2008, though this has since been postponed for four months. An earlier petition on the issue filed by DSDCRS with India’s National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) was rejected by the commission, which stated that it does not wish to interfere in spiritual matters.

In order to clarify whether or not Shugden worship should take place in the Gelugpa monasteries based in South India, the Dalai Lama called for a referendum, and a poll was held on 26-27 January and 09 February 2008. The overwhelming majority of the monks voted against allowing the Shugden cult in their monasteries.

Meanwhile, on 04 February 2008, the China Tibet Information Centre posted an article by Zhou Ren entitled: "Religious autocracy under the cover of democracy"(4), accusing the Dalai Lama of "forcing monks of Ganden monastery to sign pledges not to believe in Buddhist guardian Gyaicen Xudain [(Shugden)] and driving away those who refused thereby creating great disturbance among Tibetan communities and Tibetan Buddhist believers". Describing the exclusion of dissidents as a hidden agenda behind the drive, it accused the Dalai Lama of resuming his "former tricks" by calling for a public vote.

Simmering tensions between the two factions in South India soon started to blow up and on 24-25 February 2008 the local police in Bylakuppe Tibetan settlement, fearing possible disturbances, prevented about 200 monks, mainly from Pomra Khamsten at Sera Mey monastery and all Shugden worshippers, from participating in a prayer festival. The other monks were issued with identity badges and only allowed entry into the prayer hall on production of these badges.

On 29 February 2008, the Dorje Shugden Society USA, issued a press release in New York, with copies sent to the Indian Prime Minister and President, alleging that the Dalai Lama was inciting the repression and persecution of Tibetans who worship Shugden. It rejected allegations that Shugden supporters received funds from Beijing and claimed the allegations were totalitarian and autocratic tactics aimed at controlling opinion.

The Shugden issue took on ethnic dimensions in the Darjeeling-Kalimpong-Sikkim region of North India on 29 March 2008 when members of the Shugden group, with the support of some regional politicians, enthroned an alternative candidate, a local boy, as the reincarnation of a deceased lama against another boy, of Tibetan descent, whose enthronement had been backed by the Dalai Lama. The dispute was also linked to the issue of who would take control of the Tharpa Choling monastery, which has a substantial following among various local ethnic groups in the region.

In the South Indian Sera Mey monastery, 1200 out of a total of 1500 monks had backed the Dalai Lama’s position on Shugden at the referendum of early 2008. However, the referendum left the two sides locked in a dispute over the use of an assembly hall, kitchen and school. As a result, the Mysore police sealed the premises on 04 April 2008 and, on 05 April, residents of Bylakuppe settlement who gathered at the monastery to offer prayers for the victims of the protests in Tibet were unable to enter. This led to protests by the Tibetan Youth Congress and the situation soon turned violent after efforts by local officials to resolve the issue failed. Finally, later on 05 April 2008, after much discussion with monks and settlement residents, the authorities allowed the majority faction to pray in the assembly hall. The Sera Mey leadership later expelled six monks of the Shugden group for inciting the crisis.

About a week before the press conference, on 22 April 2008, around 100 members of the Western Shugden Society held a demonstration outside the venue of the Dalai Lama’s talk at Colgate University in Hamilton, USA. They protested against his advice to Tibetans to stop worshipping the Shugden deity. The Western Shugden Society had warned the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government in exile in advance about its plans to hold worldwide demonstrations if the expulsion of six monks from Ganden monastery in south India was not revoked(5).

Notes:
1: The Karmapa who fled in Indian exile in 2000 is the head of the Kagyupa School.
2: See: Ganden monastery reopens after Shugden clash (www.tibetinfonet.net/content/news/10178); "3/14", the new TAR party secretary, a "last ditch-struggle" and "the heads of monks and nuns" (www.tibetinfonet.net/content/update/20); Allegiance to the Dalai Lama and those who "become rich by opposing splittism" (www.tibetinfonet.net/content/update/61); Religious statues missing from monastery (www.tibetinfonet.net/content/news/10561).
3: See: CTA issues statement on Shugden followers from Tibet (www.tibetinfonet.net/content/news/10506).
4: Dalai Lama's action: Religious autocracy under cover of democracy- Zou Ren 4 Feb 08 http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-02/05/content_7571870.htm
5: Letter by Western Shugden Society.

::link

[Mark Savage]

Thanks for the extensive and detailed update and for the links to further reading.

[Sujatin]

This is a longstanding issue, which has surfaced many times throughout Tibetan history. Here's what the 'Great 5th' Dalai Lama wrote in the 17th Century. In 1997 the conflicting views led to murder. Here is a long article with more of the history of Tibetan Buddhism and the root of the problem, its incorporation of aspects of Bon. From this article:

"The conflict began to resurface this century when, in 1973, a lama published an account of various illnesses, tortures, and deaths allegedly inflicted as punishment by Dorje upon Gelugpas who practiced Nyingma teachings.....

The present Dalai Lama, who himself has engaged in some Nyingma practices, condemned the publication and in 1976, upon advice of the Nechung oracle, began discouraging the practice of propitiating Dorje - although he himself had, up to that point, been in the habit of offering daily prayers to Dorje Shugden. Of the six categories of beings in Tibetan Buddhism, the current Dalai Lama's brother, Thubten Jigme Norbu, places Shugden in the "hungry ghost" category, a status comparable to Western notions of evil spirits that haunt or possess people. By 1996, the Dalai Lama was quoted as saying: "It has become fairly clear that (Shugden) is a spirit of the dark forces." He announced that he would give no tantric initiations to those who had not renounced Shugden. It also is alleged by the Shugden camp that supporters of the Dalai Lama's position destroyed statues of individual Shugden worshipers.

This is a big deal because some Tibetans have entrusted their lives to Dorje through initiation ceremonies, believing him to be a bodhisattva, or manifestation of Buddha. Imagine the uproar in the Catholic Church if the pope were to declare prayers to Mary a form of Satanworship to have a sense of how disturbed some Tibetans might be by these pronouncements. According to Shugden supporters, there were protests by Tibetan monks in India following the Dalai Lama's statements. In the West, the Dalai Lama was picketed in London in 1996 and accused of suppressing freedom of religion. A few days later, a statement was issued by the Tibetan government-in-exile strictly forbidding departments and monasteries under government control from propitiating Shugden. In February of 1997, three anti-Shugden Tibetan Buddhist monks, including the Dalai Lama's close friend and confidant, seventy-year-old Lobsang Gyatso (the principal of the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics), were brutally murdered in Dharamsala, India, the Tibetan capital in exile. It is alleged that monks loyal to Dorje Shugden did the killing.........

The Shugden movement is organized around Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, a Gelugpa monk who founded The New Kadampa Tradition in 1991 and set himself up as head of it in London. (As described earlier, Kadampa was the order founded by eleventh-century reformer Atisha.) Kelsang's uncle is the medium for Dorje Shugden." ::link

[Will]

Wow… I’ve look at everything said here, and to start with I feel a lot of it goes over my head. But I guess it just goes to show how I’ve only just set my little toe on the top of the iceberg that is Buddhism (and its history), the NKT has come up in a some what negative way with some of the Buddhist groups I joined years ago. But thought nothing of it much at the time. But the NKT came into my thoughts again as I was searching for Buddhist groups/centers I might visit in Florida as I am going there soon. The only place I can find in the Town I am going to is Kadampa Meditation Center (KMC) am I right in thinking that this centre and the NKT are one and the same?
Even in my limited knowledge I am for lack of a better saying “Pro Dalai Lama” but I am some what Anti America, or should I say American foreign policies and “social exports” I have never thought to look into the Dalai Lama political standings. But I feel I must now, just so I can understand what is going on fully. Which is sad for me, as Buddhism has been a beautifully politics free thing for me (but I guess that comes with studying it by my self) but I guess it was foolish to not consider that in Buddhism you get the same political problems as you do with any religion. But politics is important to me too as is the views I have on world issues. But… Buddhism is so precious to me, and politics is such a dirty messy business. But I really have no view as yet as I have not fully found my feet with it all. And I think my heart is telling me to keep the two very separate
These are my thoughts as I type. But my question is this if the KMC is a branch of the KNT, do I really wish to visit this place? I think people might say “sure, it will do not harm”… but will it? Are they rather neutral when it comes to day to day “practice”? What could I expect from interacting with them?
You guys are so much more informed than me, what would your advice be about them as a group of Buddhist and there “practice”?


Will

[Caz namyaw]

Dear Will

Ive just stumbled across the internet and though it be best if i help you with your predicament when you said.

But my question is this if the KMC is a branch of the KNT, do I really wish to visit this place? I think people might say “sure, it will do not harm”… but will it? Are they rather neutral when it comes to day to day “practice”? What could I expect from interacting with them?

Yes they are a branch of the nkt and no they will do you know harm the nkt are not the monsters people portray them to be.
Their centres are friendly enough ive been a member for near enough since i was a small child and have never found anything wrong or sensed any foul play at all, the nkt is basically gelugpa lineage of an unbroken succession, coming from the late great trijang rinpoche and his grea renowned master je phabongkhapa, the reason why so much contraversy sourrounds the nkt is as follows the dalai lama ( i should also add that the dalai lama broke with this lineage and still claims to be practising purely which you cannot do if you have forsaken your teachers teachings ) has repeatedly demonised dorje shugden as an evil spirit which according top the law of common sense is very much nonsense the reasons he has given where very much in favour of his political goals of creating a tibet under his directorship, from my personal experience of interacting with them they are very friendly and most of the people i have met have been very down to earth they have many classes on in their centres from introductory to general programe to advanced programe of study, If you fancy go and have a look down there, There have been many disgusting rumors about the nkt of which for members who live at the centres or go to centres are very shocked to hear such things are being said as the actual reality is that the portrait some people portray of the nkt is very much only existant in their minds alone, that it doesnt actually represent the reality behind the organisation.
If you are not a fan of politics i suggest you your distance from the dalai lama the line between politics and religion is very much blurred with him he presents one face toward the west and one towards his own people alot of people are roped in by the smiles and giggles as to many he represents the face of buddhism but to some it could be futher from the truth from actually having become a victim of him and his exile goverments sectarian ban on religious freedom.

peace

xxx

[Caz namyaw]

Dear Dharmavidya.

I understand that most buddhists whom see these protests would be initially shockedbut it must be taken into context that the dalai lama and his exiled government where issued with an ultimatum after letters had been sent to them requesting them to reverse the expulsion of numerous monks for their traditional practise, after non response the option was taken for worldwide protests in order to draw attention to this....as famous as the dalai lama may be restricting religious freedoms over a disagreement is not a good course of action, it should also be taken into account that it isnt actually the nkt protesting the nkt formally has no association with the protests but the western shugden society is an ad hoc coalition of dorje shugden practitoners from around the world that means nkt students can by personal choice if they wish take part in these protests as many of them did, along with a few brave tibetans who have very much risked face and most likely endagered their selves as a result of engaging in these protests for religious freedom.
Another way to look at it would be to consider what if it was a practise in your tradition which was considered essential was banned by a leading member with considerable political power and spiritual authority, would you not try and do everything in order to preserve said tradition for future generations ? Imagine diplomacy has completly been non responsive and said religious political figure stepped up a signiture campaign in order to erradercate this practise, what other options are left, to leave this essential practise to become something that is widley demonised and viewed as evil ? or to draw attention to this major very negative act in order to try and futher peoples human rights to practise without fear of persecution and ostracism.
Personally the issue would have been solved much quicker had the dalai lama engaged in diolouge but he didnt.
Because the dalai lama is such an influencial figure it has become taboo amongst buddhist to critise his actions, this is very dangerous as however he maybe regarded he is human and still capable of human flaws.
it reminds me of a poem....

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

Following a similar line of reasoning no matter how influencial the person if people dont speak out against violations of personal liberties, then who will be left to speak for you ?



peace

xxx

[Cynthia S Churchward]

Hi Will,
Where are you visiting in Florida - maybe I can help you out with a Center. We have many wonderful Sangha's in Florida who are in no way related to NKT even though there are several in our area.
Namaste,
Cindy

Will said:

Wow… I’ve look at everything said here, and to start with I feel a lot of it goes over my head. But I guess it just goes to show how I’ve only just set my little toe on the top of the iceberg that is Buddhism (and its history), the NKT has come up in a some what negative way with some of the Buddhist groups I joined years ago. But thought nothing of it much at the time. But the NKT came into my thoughts again as I was searching for Buddhist groups/centers I might visit in Florida as I am going there soon. The only place I can find in the Town I am going to is Kadampa Meditation Center (KMC) am I right in thinking that this centre and the NKT are one and the same?
Even in my limited knowledge I am for lack of a better saying “Pro Dalai Lama” but I am some what Anti America, or should I say American foreign policies and “social exports” I have never thought to look into the Dalai Lama political standings. But I feel I must now, just so I can understand what is going on fully. Which is sad for me, as Buddhism has been a beautifully politics free thing for me (but I guess that comes with studying it by my self) but I guess it was foolish to not consider that in Buddhism you get the same political problems as you do with any religion. But politics is important to me too as is the views I have on world issues. But… Buddhism is so precious to me, and politics is such a dirty messy business. But I really have no view as yet as I have not fully found my feet with it all. And I think my heart is telling me to keep the two very separate
These are my thoughts as I type. But my question is this if the KMC is a branch of the KNT, do I really wish to visit this place? I think people might say “sure, it will do not harm”… but will it? Are they rather neutral when it comes to day to day “practice”? What could I expect from interacting with them?
You guys are so much more informed than me, what would your advice be about them as a group of Buddhist and there “practice”?


Will

[Cynthia S Churchward]

BTY - If you're Center is doing the Shugden practice they're NKT and I personally would avoid it at all costs (that's imho)

Cynthia S Churchward said:

Hi Will,
Where are you visiting in Florida - maybe I can help you out with a Center. We have many wonderful Sangha's in Florida who are in no way related to NKT even though there are several in our area.
Namaste,
Cindy

Will said:

Wow… I’ve look at everything said here, and to start with I feel a lot of it goes over my head. But I guess it just goes to show how I’ve only just set my little toe on the top of the iceberg that is Buddhism (and its history), the NKT has come up in a some what negative way with some of the Buddhist groups I joined years ago. But thought nothing of it much at the time. But the NKT came into my thoughts again as I was searching for Buddhist groups/centers I might visit in Florida as I am going there soon. The only place I can find in the Town I am going to is Kadampa Meditation Center (KMC) am I right in thinking that this centre and the NKT are one and the same?
Even in my limited knowledge I am for lack of a better saying “Pro Dalai Lama” but I am some what Anti America, or should I say American foreign policies and “social exports” I have never thought to look into the Dalai Lama political standings. But I feel I must now, just so I can understand what is going on fully. Which is sad for me, as Buddhism has been a beautifully politics free thing for me (but I guess that comes with studying it by my self) but I guess it was foolish to not consider that in Buddhism you get the same political problems as you do with any religion. But politics is important to me too as is the views I have on world issues. But… Buddhism is so precious to me, and politics is such a dirty messy business. But I really have no view as yet as I have not fully found my feet with it all. And I think my heart is telling me to keep the two very separate
These are my thoughts as I type. But my question is this if the KMC is a branch of the KNT, do I really wish to visit this place? I think people might say “sure, it will do not harm”… but will it? Are they rather neutral when it comes to day to day “practice”? What could I expect from interacting with them?
You guys are so much more informed than me, what would your advice be about them as a group of Buddhist and there “practice”?


Will

[Kenny Lewis]

I can only reflect on the history of organised religion and note that there have always been those (usually hidden from view) who seek to bring disripute to a movement for their own (usually political) ends.

So we can see that groups divide and then 'in' fight and divide again and then 'in' fight again, cells divide and then divide again - what does that remind you of? So there is a certain natural nature to division as if it is part of the overall growth??.

His Holiness has said 'freedom of speech is sacred' and as such we are all allowed to speak freely.

I remember a Christian preacher once saying "don't judge God by the works of Men."

Individually then, we are still to look in to the Teachings and penetrate them as directly as we can irrespective of the works of Men, we are Humans and so then I suppose that we - have, do, and will make mistakes in terms of how we express our Joy or discontent.

There will always be struggles for power, I hope my good freinds that it is not you and I who struggle for the power.

I give great thanks that we can have these discussions, thank you for all the information so far, everyone, and for your points of view. There's a freedom in that alone. x

Namo Amida Bu

[Dudders]

Caz, You said ...

"It should also be taken into account that it isnt actually the nkt protesting the nkt formally has no association with the protests but the western shugden society is an ad hoc coalition of dorje shugden practitoners from around the world that means nkt students can by personal choice if they wish".

I am sorry but this statement of yours is disingenuous and I feel very strongly that I must counteract this with an alternative viewpoint.

Please visit this link

http://www.nktworld.org/wss.html

For more info on the Western Shugden Society visit this link

http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/

What I like about this site is the fact that comments in opposition to the opinion of the author are allowed and he engages in a respectful discussion. In contrast the Western Shugden Society website and Pro NKT web sites and blogs such as nkttruth never allow opposing comments and present there opinions as fact and are self reverential.

[Marjolaine Hohberger]

The entire issue ( hi i am marjolijn living in kathmandu and living with Tibetans now near Kopan Monastery.
the entire issue should not be one.
all wise people and peace loving spirits understand it this way not just there is no duality but really how hard is it to understand that the Lakota indians want the land back even we love Obama and the Dharamsala Government yes after 3 generations of exilum or 4 lets go America because India not nice Nepal hates tibetans they need the chinese market.
nothing spiritual just business. HH unites people and the d'ifferent ' sects' never communicated much and this is also not true like Harvard University and Haverford if you wish.
We poor silly westerners should not fight other peoples' fights, tibetian are more united than you think and particularly these ' monastic discussions' are just to blind China.
China has a human rights issue.
Yet if my monastery is there I do not shout it out loud okay?!@
Not because they pretend they cannot be seen with so and so they are not continuously on the phone each other. The lamas mean do your water and flower offering and mind your own ...
om mani padme hum
The sad march and repercussions afterwards casualties nonetheless are terrible. The tibetan freedom movement is not new it comes and goes.
This moment of time I feel peope are bored with oppression more so than ever thats all.
And the fact that the entire chinese are now practicing dorje shugden is better than just mao?